Zen, Dzogchen, & Nondual Awareness Pt. 2
In Episode 30 of Redesigning The Dharma by Sahaja Soma, Adrian Baker continues his conversation with Zen priest and Dzogchen practitioner, Kokyo Henkel. They discuss how he balances Zen and Dzogchen practices on a day-to-day basis—keeping ritual practices separate, and dive into his current hermitage life, his upcoming book, and the differences between between group and solitary retreat. This episode presents concrete advice onscheduling, exercise, reading/chanting, boundaries, weekly retreat days, and modern challenges like phone distraction and reintegration.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro
01:33 Balancing Zen and Dzogchen Practices
07:25 Life After Monastery + Daily Schedule at Hermitage
11:06 Month Long Solo Retreats
14:12 Group Retreat Social Dynamics
18:43 Advice for Self Retreats
25:33 Reintegration After Retreat
29:01 Digital Detox and Phones
30:22 Offerings and Closing
Guest Bio:
Kokyo Henkel has dedicated his life to Buddhist practice since 1990. He spent nearly two decades in monastic training, living at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, Green Gulch Farm, and No Abode Hermitage in the Sōtō Zen lineage of Shunryu Suzuki Roshi. He also spent a full year studying in Japan at Bukokuji Monastery under Tangen Harada Roshi. Tenshin Reb Anderson Roshi ordained Henkel as a Zen priest in nineteen ninety-four and gave him Dharma transmission in twenty ten, making him the ninety-second generation lineage holder. From 2010 - 2020, Henkel served as the guiding teacher at the Santa Cruz Zen Center.
Beyond his roots in Zen, Henkel integrates Tibetan Vajrayana and Dzogchen traditions into his path. He has studied with masters like Tsoknyi Rinpoche since two thousand and three and completed his foundational Ngöndro practices in twenty twenty. Today, Henkel focuses on applying ancient teachings from India, China, and Japan to modern life. He lives with his wife at Bright Window Hermitage, a retreat space in California's Santa Lucia Mountains for practitioners of all traditions.
Full Transcript:
Welcome back to Redesigning the Dharma. I'm your host, Adrian Baker, and this is part two of my conversation with Kokyo Henkel. Kokyo has dedicated his life to Buddhist practice since 1990. He spent nearly two decades in monastic training in the Sōtō Zen lineage of Suzuki Roshi, living at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, Green Gulch Farm, and No Abode Hermitage.
He also spent a full year studying in Japan under Tangan Harada Roshi. Tenshin Reb Anderson Roshi ordained Henkel as a Zen priest in 1994 and gave him Dharma transmission. Beyond his roots in Zen, Henkel integrates Tibetan Vajrayana and Dzogchen traditions into his path. He has studied with masters like Tsoknyi Rinpoche since 2003 and undertaken the foundational Ngöndro practices.
Today, Henkel focuses on applying ancient teachings from India, China, and [00:01:00] Japan to modern life. He lives with his wife at Bright Window Hermitage, a retreat space in California's Santa Lucia Mountains for practitioners of all traditions.
In part one, we explored Kokyo's journey into Zen at Brown University, his nearly two decades of monastic training at Tassajara and Green Gulch, and his transition into Dzogchen through Tsoknyi Rinpoche.
We also dived into the differences between Zen and Dzogchen, as well as his experience completing Ngöndro. If you haven't heard that episode yet, I'd recommend going back and catching part one first. Now let's dive into the second half of the conversation.
Adrian: so my question for you now at this point in your life is, and you can also talk about maybe how you manage it throughout that time, but, as someone who practiced in sort of two different traditions, even though there's a lot of synergy with dzogchen and Zen, you know, you've got your zazen, you have vajrayana. What did that look like for a period of time, and what's it look like today? In other words, were you and are you separating those? Are they now integrated? just to give some advice for folks who, [00:02:00] in this day and age, are practicing in different traditions and maybe how to do it in a conscious
Kokyo: Yeah. Well, I see, as we've been talking about from the start, I really understood trekcho, the central practice of dzogchen means cutting through as identical to my understanding of shikantaza in Soto Zen, just sitting. And I say that this is my understanding because especially shikantaza, people define it in many different ways because Dogen, who coined the term, didn't really define it so clearly. And a few-- he doesn't even mention it that many times in his voluminous writings. Um, so people interpret it different ways. But, you can definitely find teachings that, present it as, what I would say identical to, trekcho. Particularly, um, the, 17th century Sōtō Zen kind of scholar, practitioner, yogi named Menzan Zuiho.
Not so known in America, but I think in his era, maybe most important, spokesperson for Dogen Zen and Sōtō Zen. And, I would even say between the [00:03:00] time of Dogen and Keizan, the, Japanese founders and the modern era, Suzuki Roshi and so on, Menzan may have been, the most important, writer and speaker for, Sōtō Zen.
And he was a zazen fanatic. he did a three-year zazen retreat, which is kind of unusual. I think solo in Japan. and he just wrote a lot and really, was devoted to Dogen's teachings. Anyway, one of the few texts we have in English, is his kind of zazen instructions for laypeople actually.
you can find it in a book called, The Heart of Zen" maybe. Shohaku Okumura Roshi translated it. Used to be called "Dogen Zen." Anyway, he says the heart of this, just sitting practice is to, he poetically expresses, quoting his Zen ancestors, " Not to obscure the radiant light of the true self."
And then he defines this as, this present awareness, just being this present awareness. And so it's not, focusing on sights and sounds. it's not following the breath. It's, just not obscuring what's already present for everybody So I think [00:04:00] that type of understanding of shikantaza, I think fits very nicely with trekcho.
Understanding what we mean by non-dual awareness and then just simply being that without adding anything extra or subtracting anything. And so, in my understanding, the meditation practice is the same in these two traditions. So if I'm calling it zazen or trekcho, of course, it's not easy to do that all the time, but the intention, to practice that would be the same.
And it's the same posture is emphasized in both traditions too. the sevenfold posture of Vairochana Dogen describes in, detail... It really lines up and the breathing and so on. still like to read and receive instructions in both traditions and see how they correlate, but the actual practice of meditation, I would say, is the same. Um, dzogchen does have this other meditation practice called tögal, but that's a little different from Zen. a more visionary practice, and Tsoknyi Rinpoche doesn't like to emphasize that one so much. You know, when people ask about it, he says, "I'm not so sure.
We-- You don't need this for [00:05:00] complete awakening. Trekcho alone is all you really need." So that's his take, and I appreciate that 'cause it's kind of a Zen take on
it. But, those practices would be a little different And then there's the ritual elements. So this is where they differ.
The vajrayana ritual practices of sadhana, you know, Ngöndro preliminary practices, and then reciting, the sadhana text, it's a visualization of a deity and visualizing yourself as the deity after receiving empowerment for that deity, and then reciting their mantra as the voice of that deity.
So you're bringing body, speech, and mind all together, and it is a non-dual awareness practice with a kind of form. It's kind of a technology. In some ways, I feel like could be more challenging than just sitting. But some would say, "No, it's actually, it's hard to just be rigpa, be non-dual awareness."
So for some people, may be considered a good approach or a good integration too of the world of appearances and the non-dual awareness. So that practice, I don't try to mix it with Zen. It's, its own [00:06:00] thing. It's its own lineage. I'll recite the lineage, as is the tradition at the beginning of those practices.
Do those practices, the mantra practice, do the aspiration prayers at the end, make offerings to the dzogchen dharma protectors, these things on a mostly daily basis. And then Zen also has its whole set of rituals, in some ways kind of similar. It's not tantric, or emphasizing visualization so much, but there's a whole morning and noon and evening puja services in Zen that I like to do that also involve reciting all the names of the lineage and bowing to them in a very similar devotional, way from the ancient Buddhas up to one's present teacher and, refuge, bodhichitta, and making offerings, all these principles.
So, as comes down to us through the Japanese Zen tradition as transmitted from China, like maybe 1,000 years ago, most of this kind of came into place in China, and we have the old manuals. So, um, and then there's the dharma protectors of Zen, making [00:07:00] offerings to them every day too. they have a lot of similar elements, but I like to keep the ritual parts separate.
I usually in the morning I'll do the Zen, ritual service, and then I'll right afterwards go right into the Tibetan Vajrayana, ritual service too. so ma- many ways they're very similar, and they have a little different flavor, and I like the different flavor.
So kind of like, keeping them both.
Adrian: That makes sense though.
Kokyo: traditional in both ways, yeah.
Adrian: them. Yeah. so now you're not in the monastery, you've, got your own,
Kokyo: It's a hermitage.
Adrian: center, hermitage. Yeah. So what's your practice look like these days? How many hours a day are you practicing?
What else are you doing? And, how's that feel after being in a monastery for so long? Yeah
Kokyo: Yeah. Yeah, it was almost 20 years in the, daily schedule of the monastic communities of Tassajara and Green Gulch, with the regular, week-long sesshin retreats and so on. And being with a teacher, you know, that was a really wonderful part of all these years. my teacher Tenshin Roshi, who's recently left Green Gulch in his mid-80s up to the, [00:08:00] the Zen retirement community north of there that they set up.
um, just, you know, every day just being around a teacher like that and, having access to and meeting and dokusan so regularly. That was a real gift of the Zen style community that one-on-one meeting is in addition to group classes and teachings and talks, is a great gift of the Zen tradition that, it's there in dzogchen too, but, teachers like Tsoknyi Rinpoche just has so many students.
Um, when I, when I first saw him, you could sign up to meet individually, not for very long, but it was a regular thing at retreats. You got a 10-minute conversation, but then it just expanded more and more, and
Adrian: No, you don't get that with a teacher like Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Minyor Rinpoche, so you have to... That is, that is, you know, a challenge. You have-- The teacher's amazing, but then you-- we need that feedback, and so we have to seek it out
Kokyo: Yeah. And it depends on the teacher. so yeah, so it was that kind of practice. And then at Santa Cruz Zen Center, I was there for 10 years, and that was a kind of a transition. It was not a residential monastery, but, a, [00:09:00] a very active town Zen center. Well, you know. You, you're in Santa Cruz now, right?
Adrian: Yes.
Kokyo: You've been, at least when I
Adrian: I was impressed for how, um, 'cause it's not an active monastery, I was impressed for how full on it is. I mean, they're offering Zazen most days twice a day, sometimes three times a day, Dharma talk. It's very active.
Kokyo: would say we tried to do three times a day, every day. and, uh, yeah, weekly Dharma talks and regular sesshins. Like every other month we'd have a retreat. I think I was a little bit... People were trying to, like restrain me a little bit 'cause I was coming
Adrian: Cruz chill out? Yeah, they've mellowed out a bit from what I can
Kokyo: yeah. I think
Adrian: by the way
Kokyo: hard to maintain all of that. but yeah, it was a great place. There were, ordained priests. We could do a lot of the ritual practice and training and ceremonies and things like that. but there was a lot of freedom, too, and, people coming and going.
But I appreciated that the-- I would try to join most of those zazen periods, so That would, um, keep me going if I was busy. "It's time for zazen. Just go." And, uh, [00:10:00] so here, being on my own, my wife and I live here, and she's also a Zen priest, but, a more Vajrayana practitioner these days. So she's mostly doing Ngöndro and other ritual practices.
and she has her little cabin, and I have a zazen, room. So we, come together and, chant together. Usually noon and evening Zen service we do together, chanting but mostly practice on our own. So, um, these days I would like to be sitting more zazen. I usually try to do, two periods in the morning.
Forty minutes is kind of a standard for Soto Zen. And, I try to get up at 4:00 or so and, do some yoga and sit by 5:00. It doesn't always happen. And then do the Zen service, then do the, sadhana practice and sang, smoke offering, and so on. and then most of the rest of the day when not taking care of this place, I've been working on this book, this Dogen book for like 10 years now, and I'm determined to finish it in the next month or so.
It's, it's very close. So because I'm so immersed in that, I'd spend hours [00:11:00] editing and working on that. So I think after that's done, I'd like to take up more of like an evening, zazen practice. And then one thing that I do out here that's, been really great, actually before getting here too.
I think starting in Santa Cruz, I would take a month every year and do a month-long solo retreat, sometimes with my wife in another cabin that we'd get together for lunch or something. Zen practice is so group-oriented. And of course, the Zen tradition, especially in China and Korea Still has a, living hermit tradition, solitary retreat.
And Tibetan Buddhism has a, large living tradition of solitary retreat. And, so discovering that, was really moving for me. it really was a, a different kind of practice that I would say... I hesitate to say deeper because I think group practice is so great too, especially at the beginning. we really need the support of the group.
But, after a couple decades of group Zen retreats, I could do like a Zen sesshin, on my own. And then a lot of it was Ngöndro in these [00:12:00] first years of these month-long retreats. But the last few, just been like a month-long sesshin, which is like 10 40-minute periods of zazen a day and, with a morning, noon, and evening chanting.
Also morning and evening Vajrayana short, recitation and, these tsok feast offerings on the, special days of the month. but mostly like a sesshin but sitting alone, and I really, just appreciate it so deeply. And it's hard to go offline for a month, and put everything else aside, but, uh, so, so worth it.
And so I, usually in the fall, so I think November this year, I'll try to put aside that month for this solitary retreat
Adrian: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you kind of have these famous examples in, Japanese Zen. You know, you've got like the wandering poets like Ryokan or, or someone like that. you have these figures here and there, but it doesn't seem to be as prominent as it was, the hermitage in Japan.
Is that just because Japan's such a communal society that that wasn't, [00:13:00] looked favorably upon so much?
Kokyo: I think it is. It's a very communal society. Yeah, culturally is a big part of it. Also, it's small islands, so there's not that much space to go and, and do
this. And,
Adrian: to wander in. Yeah
Kokyo: and Dogen actually, actually it was Keizan in his "Transmission of Light" record, which is one of the classics of early Sōtō Zen in Japan.
He has this kind of rant where it must be s- one of his students wants to do solo retreat, and he says, " You're just deluding. You just distract yourself, and you think you're really doing it, but you're not. You should just stay in the monastery and work it out with these people."
And so that's, I think that's partly because of that maybe the flavor of Sōtō Zen is the real thing is, Sometimes we talk about the monastery as like a rock tumbler, where you put all these rough rocks in and you shake them all together and it smooths everybody off. And it's true. It's hard to get along with, you're living with this big family day after day and there's no escape.
So, um, it's great practice for sure. And I think solitary practice is just a s- [00:14:00] it's so, it's so not distracting actually, without any of the social stuff that even in a silent retreat you're sort of negotiating how you are with people and so on. And, sort of none of that. But I think
Adrian: a bit more about that? Sorry to interrupt, but that seems like an important point that I know what you're talking about, having sat some silent retreats, but I think that would not be intuitive to people
Kokyo: 嗯。
Adrian: when you're silent. Can you say a little bit more about how even though you're silent, it can still occupy this kind of mental bandwidth that what you're negotiating?
Kokyo: we try to stay silent, you know, keep your eyes cast down, just bow to people to greet them. And still you kind of like, maybe somebody gives you the evil eye or, And then there's all the ritual elements that are, so group-oriented. So like, if you're the, doron, like the, one ringing the bells for the chanting or something, then the, the ino, who's like the zendo manager, gives you feedback afterwards which is g- it's all part of the training.
So if you're trying to refine the, ritual [00:15:00] procedures. So there's a little talking, and then because it's feedback, you feel like, " What do you mean? I thought it was right." "You thought that was too fast?" "I thought it was too slow." And all that kind of stuff. And then we have oryoki, it's this beautiful way of serving food where everybody has their own eating bowls in the zendo.
It's kind of standard for Zen retreat. And, servers come in and serve it, and there's a way to do everything very precisely. So a great mindfulness practice, great group harmony practice. But, for the servers, of course, they have to do their debriefing, and they're interacting with the kitchen crew, and It's a little bit complicated. It's a little bit like it's part of the practice to bring the zazen into this activity and serving others and helping. and maybe some work periods and cleaning periods. It's a group thing where you're getting, you know, there's a lit- it's not that much interaction, but it's enough that, it can leave some residue.
and I've heard many people say, you know, " Yeah, the head server was really kind of poking at us a little too much." And, and then you carry that [00:16:00] into zazen. Where if you're on your own, you know, you're cooking your own meals. you have your own activities, but this kind of the interactive part, even though it's great training, it just simplifies it so much when you're alone.
If you have any problems, you, have no one to blame but yourself because there's nobody else there. So, um, I just think that is very refreshing and simplifying, and it's fine. I can get into a really... Nothing is happening except my own mind. So, um, just really settling into it more and more deeply, more quickly.
but f- I think for someone new to meditation, it wouldn't work so well. cause nobody's tracking you on a schedule or if you know, you could just be sitting around doing whatever. so, uh, the discipline that comes from the group practice over and over I think is a really good foundation Especially if one's just sitting all day for a month with no days off, could be really quite difficult for people compared to what's more common in Tibetan tradition is vajrayana practices, which in a way are kind of more interesting 'cause you're doing [00:17:00] something, and you have a lot different ones that you're doing through the day.
So the mind is, a little bit more engaged than just, like a Tibetan three-year retreat. There's not so much silent sitting. Maybe a little bit of dzogchen at the very, end of the last year where you're doing silent sitting, but mostly it's three years of recitation and offerings and ritual practices that are really interesting and engaging So, um, yes, as you say, Japanese Zen doesn't have so much of that hermit tradition, but, the teacher Shodo Harada Roshi, who's, teach- has a lot of Western students, he did, um, practice in the mountains alone for maybe a year or at least quite some months, after being in the monastery, and he had a kind of a big breakthrough up there in the mountains and then came back to the monastery.
And then we have like Xuyun, Empty Cloud in China, who did a lot of like hermit practice in the, early part of the century and kind of revived Chinese Buddhism and Zen. And, uh, there's a, there's this great film, called, uh, "Mountain Path." [00:18:00] Yeah.
Adrian: I thought you were gonna say amongst like, uh,
Kokyo: White Clouds." Yeah. That's the same one. It just got remade a- as,
Adrian: Oh, it got renamed. Okay, what's the new name?
Kokyo: I think "Mountain Path."
Adrian: Okay
Kokyo: Very inspiring, right? You know, the, the Chinese present day hermit tradition. Mm-hmm.
Adrian: Interesting.
Kokyo: So this is not quite, like, quite as simple as that. It's a, it's a little more comfortable house here at the Hermitage. Um, and, uh, it's not quite so remote, but it's pretty quiet. And then also here There's a cabin here for guests to come do solitary retreat. And not too many people know about it, but you and, others are always welcome to, come and take advantage of this little cabin.
Adrian: thank you. We'll definitely provide a link to that as well for folks. I wanted to ask for maybe some of those more intermediate practitioners who are at a point where they're comfortable doing a self-retreat, you know, what kind of advice you have in talking through some things here because how do you think about balancing that discipline with [00:19:00] also, maybe I'm just too contemporary, adapting it for the individual in a way that works?
so one thing that I think about for myself is when you're in the group, there's a lot of benefit to the discipline and the motivation of the group. I definitely feel that. I also feel like when I'm in a space, especially like Zen, where everything is so laid out for you Part of the advantage is you give yourself over to that and you don't think. But the flip side is there's really not room for intuition, I feel like. You know, something that I've noticed in my own practice is I like where there's together time, but I like where there's space for autonomy and that if I feel, and this is something I've really struggled with with Zen, if I feel I've been sitting a lot, like I naturally, I wanna move my body more.
I wanna do more walking meditation. though on the other hand, you know, you need to balance that. There's a reason you set a timer. You don't just get up when, you're bored or whatever . So what-- how do you advise people who are maybe [00:20:00] ready for that self-retreat, but how to strike that balance between finding that discipline but also adapting it in a way where it works for them and leaving space for intuition?
Kokyo: Yeah. it's a good question, and I think it probably depends on how long the retreat is. I think the, longer it is, the more room there may be appropriate for more experimentation. If it's one day, then I think it's nice to be like, ' cause it's rare to put that day aside, really, um, make it quite a full day of sitting, say.
that's another thing I, didn't mention I'd like to do. Um, once a week, We just chose Sundays, but it's like a silent retreat day with my wife. And that I'll do like that session, like 10 period zazen day. So that's really refreshing, a re- a, a great r- yeah, yeah.
Re- and, some weeks it's not possible, but mostly try to do it. And that's something that actually came from Tsoknyi Rinpoche. He said for his students, and he's talking to laypeople, you know, who have busy lives, is if you really wanna, go deeper, have one day a week where you just have a retreat [00:21:00] day.
And when I first heard that, that's a lot. we don't have that at the Zen centers. But, in this current environment and lifestyle, I have no excuse not to do that. So th- so that's a thing that I think if people are thinking of, solo retreat, try it for one day first. And, I think it's nice to have a pretty full schedule for a day.
We also have days off. It's nice to have a day off and just go walk in the woods or something. But, I think there's many different versions. I think, so-called breaks, if we think of formal sessions and breaks, they sometimes talk about in Tibetan tradition.
and it could structure a day that where you have, post meditation they would call it, where you're just still practicing but in a informal way, like you're cooking a meal and eating. And I like to study dharma just as a inspiration and fuel on a retreat when you're not getting input from other teachers on a solo retreat.
So I think that for me, that's really relaxing. For some, that's like a burden. They'd rather be sitting. But, I find that as a kind of, um, nourishing, break that's in between meditation [00:22:00] sessions. And, um, as a Zen person, I think if I didn't have the vajrayana, I think doing some of the ritual Zen elements like the chanting basically, is really nourishing 'cause if it's just sitting silently, I think it can get, kinda dry.
I think these,
Adrian: Mm-hmm.
Kokyo: these devotional practices, which is one way to look at all the ritual practices is they can be heart opening. For some people they're maybe not, but to find something that is kind of heart opening and then, um, as a kind of balance and active Zen where you're like belting it out when chanting.
So like get the voice going if you're silent all day, play the drum loud, you know? And, um, a kind of an energy practice. And of course exercise, like you say. There's yoga and, Santa Cruz Zen Center for a while there was a qigong teacher who would come to all the sesshin retreats, and he would offer a period of qigong, which is, not really vigorous exercise, but it was a body practice, with a lot of sitting that most people appreciated.
It was optional, but most people would come. so these things. I find it's [00:23:00] really helpful for myself to have a schedule for a solo retreat. some people I think try, "Well, I'll just see what happens," and more intuitive. But, I think times when I've had less of a schedule, I just don't do so much sitting.
Adrian: Yeah
Kokyo: And then, uh, and I feel the difference. So I think with a, timer, but I think having other practices like walking and exercising, are really good balance too. and then the schedule with a timer is interesting because nobody's checking. So I often don't totally stick to the n- like a Zen sesshin, you just gotta be there on time or you're late.
But, sometimes I won't start right on time, but I'll still, do the 40-minute periods. But I'm like, " No, I don't wanna rush. I'm not gonna rush. I have time." Maybe I end up just the next break is shorter or I stay up a little later or something like that. but that kind of flexibility even with a schedule I really appreciate in a solo retreat.
Just that nothing's pushed or rushed or if it does feel that way, I say like, "Well, I'm just doing this to myself." I can, you know, work it so it's responding to the, present. I can remember retreats where [00:24:00] it's time to sleep if I'm gonna get up early, then go to sleep, but I'm really cooking, you know, at night.
Like I wanna just keep sitting and maybe I will actually get up later, but it's really alive now, so just go with it. Which you can't really do so much in a group retreat.
Adrian: I like that. Have a framework but could be flexible
Kokyo: Yeah, a framework that's somewhat
Adrian: advice.
Kokyo: I think I've heard this from some Tibetan teachers, nice to kind of start off not super strict, like start off with no free time at all. it feels too abrupt. Start off with giving yourself more breaks, a little bit less formal practice, and then this would be over like a month or several months, and gradually just naturally start adding more, session time
Adrian: So you start off with more breaks and then you're increasing
Kokyo: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Rather than the other
Adrian: You're building up to
Kokyo: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Adrian: that makes sense.
Kokyo: Could be the other way around, but I've heard kind of traditionally for long, especially really longer retreats, yeah, just like start off kind of relaxed and just let the momentum, build it up. Like I, uh, I talked to a, one friend who did a [00:25:00] three-year really solitary Tibetan retreat in, Nepal.
I think he didn't see anybody except his teacher
Adrian: Oh
Kokyo: come once every few months or something. Yeah. And they'd pass food under door kind of thing. And, I said, " What about reading? 'Cause I get so much inspiration from reading." He said, " Yeah, the first year I, you know, read some stuff on breaks, and after that I just felt like It was more enjoyable to not. Just like being, just being was even more alive than reading." Wow, he's really got, he got going there. Like he wasn't bored after the first year
Adrian: Yeah, you keep saying things that make, that are bringing up new questions for me. I mean, how about talking about the challenges of long retreats as well in terms of reintegrating? Because long retreats are powerful, but, and we can talk about where this start to happens. one of my teachers says he's noticed it about the six-month mark for people.
But when you're at a certain point, especially if you're not going back into a monastery, I mean, that could be hard too, if you're going from solo to a monastery, but it can be really hard to [00:26:00] reintegrate with some of those very long retreats, and there, there are mixed views about this, and I think it's kind of a, a healthy debate.
Um, what are your thoughts on this?
Kokyo: I mean, I don't have so much to say because I haven't done these longer solo. Maybe, maybe six weeks. I haven't really done longer in like super, you know, cloistered solo retreat. and that's not so long that it... I mean, it is interesting reintegrate. there was a few of them.
There's a place called Land of Calm Abiding. where, um, that one is really secluded, so, um, literally not seeing any other humans for, that month. that was just interesting to see another human when the retreat caretaker comes to take me out of the mountains. wow, there's a person. Do I remember how to talk? I mean, it's definitely kind of a s- a strange integration.
Just enjoyable, but, a strange transition for the first day, I would say, after really not seeing anyone. But mostly this is not super long retreats. And then the Zen retreats of the three-month ones, the group retreats at [00:27:00] Tassajara are... I think most people do feel that because nobody comes or goes, and you're just in the mountains, and then you just, go out after that and into the city, and it's kind of like bombarded by city and culture and billboards and, just like, I think most people feel, this world is insane.
What is going on out here? It's like a different world. And I think that's all part of the practice too, the, uh, the transitions. But I think the struggles, again, I haven't done six months of s- seclusion like that, so, I can imagine that that's more challenging. But, I think even in a one-month solitary sesshin, we're just sitting all day, of course, stuff comes up, and we have good and bad days.
and sometimes the bad days are like, it just doesn't feel so alive. Why am I doing this? I put everything aside to do it, and, I'm wasting my precious time and like that. But usually then the, the medicine is just keep going because the next day will be different. Just stay with it, I think is generally the thing.
It's nice to, set up a commitment for [00:28:00] any retreat, whether it's a half day or six months or a year, to just set up like I'm going to at least be practicing. I'm gonna keep some boundaries during this time and then stay with it I think is really good. even if it's hard and we feel like we're not going so deep with it, I think just the fact of, making a commitment and following through is training the mind itself.
So, I think other, things besides a schedule I like to, do for the solo retreats, and group retreats have this too usually in Zen, is have a physical boundary. Like, we're not gonna go outside of this area. And it could be a big area or a small area, but kind of set it up beforehand.
And like, I know I'm gonna be living in this space. Sometimes I make kinda smaller spaces, like a sort of 100-foot boundary for a month, alone, and then still need to exercise, so I'll kind of run around in loops around there. But just like, I felt like that was actually really supportive. It would be so interesting to go up the mountain where there's a big view out over the ocean, but no.
you don't need that. [00:29:00] You're going inward. I think things like that and, talking I think these days, modern times with social media and just like I spend so much of my time online. I've-- Mostly Dharma activity actually, teaching and meeting with people one-on-one also listening and receiving teachings.
But it's like 100 years ago that was-- there was none of that, right? So, in some ways, I think it's really hard for someone like me to, totally disengage for, retreat. Some retreats they, they collect people's cell phones
Adrian: Oh, yeah. It was like, I mean, I did a retreat at Spirit Rock or, you know, if you're at a vipassana place, they'll take your cell phone like that. I mean, honestly, there's part of me now that, wants, "Please take it," you know? 'Cause I mean, I certainly feel that to do the retreat on my own, it's one thing to sit even several hours a day, but to not look at the phone at all, that is a level of, of willpower that's, extremely high.
to not look at, I really wanna be in the environment where it's like, "Just take it so I'm not [00:30:00] even
Kokyo: I've heard, uh, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says for modern times, if you can stay off your phone for three days, doesn't matter what practice you do at all, just stay off your phone for three days, that's the equivalent of what used to be a three-month retreat.
Adrian: Yeah, probably.
Kokyo: Doesn't even matter what you do. Just
Adrian: You could be lost in thought. But no, really, I mean the break for your nervous system, you know, for sure. well, Coco, you know, there's so much I wanna talk about. We'll have to do a second one if we didn't even get to, ayahuasca, which I really wanted to talk with you about. But, um, I wanted to thank you so much for your time. This was really enjoyable and really rich, and I wanted to give you an opportunity in closing just to let the audience know about, what you're up to these days in terms of offerings, where they can find you
Kokyo: Yeah. So I have a website, kokyohenkel, with my upcoming events. So, um, yeah, throughout the year, mostly offer sesshins one-day retreats and things like this around the country at different Zen centers. And of course, I have a connection with San Francisco's Zen [00:31:00] Center, so Green Gulch sesshins, sometimes even longer practice periods offer there, and Tassajara as well in the summers, and other places too.
And then some online study groups ongoing, online dokusan meeting is possible. And then here at Bright Window Hermitage, people can come for both group sesshins a few times a year and solo, individual retreats throughout the year, which is like, for a couple of days, we call, Wandering Yogi program, so people can come have meals with us here but then be on their own throughout.
So it's more like talking and, uh, a lot of people like to at least try it out like that. And then for longer than three days, then people are on their own, bring their own food. There's a, kitchen in the, kuti, a little cabin down there, and, no communication needed. And even if people wanted to do longer, They could leave a shopping list, and we could, bring in food for them So, yes, that's mostly what I'm up to these
Adrian: Wonderful. Wonderful. we'll include those links in the show notes. So this was great. [00:32:00] Thank you so much again for your time
Kokyo: You're welcome. Good talking with you
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